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Using a 300ZX ECU on a VQ motor

Last post 12-22-2006, 11:03 AM by bettonracing. 3 replies.
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  •  11-16-2006, 5:03 PM 1212

    Using a 300ZX ECU on a VQ motor

    Here's the continuation thread from here:

    http://www.engineswaptech.com/forums/2/1211/ShowThread.aspx#1211

    peej410:
    would a VQ35 flywheel be swappable to a VG?  finding a VG30DE to look at around here would be about as difficult as finding a new S30 shell! no pick n pulls to walk through in these parts. i will look into it though!

     

    You could probably call Jim Wolf Technology, I believe they sell aftermarket flywheels for both motors, maybe they could help.  Or, better yet contact a company that actually makes aftermarket flywheels maybe they have spec sheets for both.

     

    Fred

     

    I know this is not definitive proof, and I am speaking from memory here, but I think I remember seeing fidanza or another well-know flywheel vendor using the same part number for 89-2001 Maxima. Now as you probably know, the 89 Maxima was VG30E based and the 1995+ was VQ30DE based. So it is quite possible that the VG30DE and VQ30DE are interchangeable, if not practically the same. Now thats a big if, and still says nothing about VG30DE and VQ35DE compatability.

    Best of luck. I don't have any of these engines laying around so I have no way to confim this.

    I have access to a VG30E flywheel ('88 300z) and of course a few VQ flywheels, I'll snap a pic for us to look at.

     

    Fred


     

    Fred Allen Burge:

    I have access to a VG30E flywheel ('88 300z) and of course a few VQ flywheels, I'll snap a pic for us to look at.

    Fred

    If it's not too much trouble, could u slap a tape measure in those pics on those flywheels, please.

     

    Sure can!

     

    Fred

     

    Ok guys here they are:

    Please note that I mislabeled the flywheel on the LH as a Z33, it's actually from a 95 Maxima.  But, it's okay because the Maxima and the 350z (Z33) share bolt patterns on the crank and bolt patterns for the pressure plate.

     

    This pic shows a 350z clutch pressure plate (yes, 350Z, I did get that right) bolts directly onto the 300z's flywheel incase anyone wants to try some frankenstein clutch combo's.

     

    So, obviously the VQ uses an 8 bolt crank vs. the VG30E's 6 bolt so this flywheel is out of the question.  But, can anyone tell me what's the more important detail in these pics concerning using the VG ECU on a VQ...........? 

     

     

    Fred

     

    I gues it was the VG30DE and TT that have an 8-bolt flywheel pattern, not the older SOHC VG30E. Sorry for the confusion.

    SSDwellah:
    I gues it was the VG30DE and TT that have an 8-bolt flywheel pattern, not the older SOHC VG30E. Sorry for the confusion.

    I see, yes, google proves you correct!  But, what I was getting at is the flywheel isn't even an issue here, if you look closely there's no crank sensor timing ring on the 300z flywheels so there is no rear crank sensor so a person wouldn't need to use a 300z flywheel on a VQ motor to use the 300z ecu on the VQ motor.  But, there's still many issues to look into, mainly the cam sensor.

     

    Fred

    I read something within the last week that stated that the older [nissan] VTC systems were more like a switch (adv/ home/ ret) rather than the pulse width modulation that the VQ35 VTC would be looking for. IIRC even some of the VQ30 VTC's were 'switches' rather than PWM. Somebody please verify this info.

    (Assuming the above information is correct...)

    Would there still be an advantage to using the 300zx ecu?... (I'll even help: COP's & sequential inj are 2 points).

    Kurt

     

    Edit: http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=71181 <-- hints at what I was saying. Still searching for my source.

    *mumbles under breath*
    "Megasquirt!"

    Kurt,

    With all due respect, I don't think that is entirely correct. The VG30DE was the first Nissan with electronic variable valve timing (and the first of any cars I know of with electronic vvt at all), so I'll admit it might be the most primitive. The system is called N-VCS.

    I don't recall where I read it but I think the older ones may have a different range. For example perhaps the original VG30DE can only vary the cam phase by +10 degrees whereas the VQ might allow +15 degrees. This is just an example. Also, some don't allow intake and exhaust to be varied (e.g. the RB25DEonly has VVT on the inlet cam). Maybe the VQ35DE is like this. I don't have a 350Z FSM so I can't verify this.

    Also what do you mean about the VQ30DE? As far as I know, there were no VQ30's with VVT, especially in the US. Are you talking about the VQ30DET or race only VQ30DETT? I haven't heard of any VQ30's with VVT, that's all I know.

    Anyway, in a related news... did anyone here know that greddy has an emanage adapter to control NVCS??? Maybe jwt can make you something similar as a daughter board to a VQ30DE ECU to run a VQ35 w/ vvt. If I had the spare time and parts I'd be all over this. It seems like very basic electronics would be necessary and I am quite good with that.

    I agree that there were "minor" mechanical differences throughout the years (smaller range of motion/ intake only/ intake and exhaust/ etc) but the activation between the 300zx & the 350z are different (hence using the vg30de ecu on a VQ35 could propose a problem where controlling VTC's are concerned).

     This thread (http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=147702&highlight=vtc#147702) reinforces that the VQ35 VTC system uses PWM (pulses to operate the advance or retard of the cam). See the excerpts from the FSM.

    This thread (http://ecu2.forumwise.com/ecu2-thread1227.html) also reinforces my point that the VG30de /dett engines uses an on/off switch to activate its VTC system.

    Sorry for any incoherence in my previous post.

    Kurt

    Edit: The VQ30's that I was referring to was the 3.0L maxima engines

    Edit #2: Maybe we should stop taking over this build thread and start one in the stand alone ecu's forums?

    Ok if they are using pwm, then it sounds like this is some newer continuously variable  valve timing. In that case I stand corrected. Perhaps the older system just had two settings (on/off)? I thought it allowed a variable amount of oil in based on rpm but I could be mistaken. Anyway, if the new design is pulsewidth modulated, it still sounds something that could be controlled completely separate from the main ecu. Although it may be invonvenient to have two boxes, you really just need something that does pwm based on a table lookup with rpm on one axis and perhaps throttle angle on another. That would give you reasonable control. Sounds simple electronically, and a lot of standalones will have spare PWM outs for applications like this.

    Re: VQ35DE powered 260z

    I agree that it seems to be a really simple electrical solution. I'd even investigate the throttle idle circuit on the stock 300zx ecu to see its signal type and input conditions.

    If only there was somebody out there who'd gotten their VQ35 VTC's to work on their megasquirt... They'd have the details we need but surely they'd post it on their own website's forum... Wonder if there's anybody out there with VTC working on their megasquirt that would have input on the matter?... Anybody? Anybody? Beuler?...

    (That was directed at Fred btw but who's pointing fingers...) Big Smile <img src=" src="/emoticons/emotion-2.gif">

    Let's await the professional's news (preferrably in a new thread) to continue the information. I'm sure I'm not the only one who hates scrolling thru 6 pages of [not directly related] disccussion just to see progress pics/posts. 

    I wonder how good the local webmasters are at thread editing...

    Kurt

    Kurt,

      You continue to call me out, I like that!  Actually I never got the VTC's working with the MS, never got that far, nobody has yet that I've heard of. 

      To be clear, the VQ30DE in the US atleast never had any form of variable valve timing, at all.  When the VQ35DE came out it had VTC on the intake cam only, now the latest VQ motors (anniversery 350z models?)  have VTC on both intake and exhaust cams.  It is a variable system and is PWM controlled, not a simple on/off setup, just being clear, I think you guys covered that already.

      I highly doubt the 300ZX ECU could feasibly be used to control the VQ's VTC.  I do believe in time one could modify the MS to be used solely as an add-on VTC computer if somebody wanted to go that route, similar to the Greddy piggy back controller mentioned before.

     

    Fred

     

     


    Instrument Cluster and Speedometer Repair
  •  11-16-2006, 7:35 PM 1213 in reply to 1212

    Re: Using a 300ZX ECU on a VQ motor

    This is ridiculous. 3hrs later, 2 full posts deleted and now I'm considering the 300zx as a viable option for my project.

    Blast You! Stupid voice of reasoning! U leave me alone I say!!!...

    Kurt

    Lemme go do some research. I'll be back.


    Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...
  •  12-22-2006, 10:01 AM 1479 in reply to 1213

    Re: Using a 300ZX ECU on a VQ motor

    Anyone know where to get this SAE doc? I think I have seen it before but I can't find it now.

    From http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=262261

    Example of NVCS Operation, 1990 Nissan 300ZX TT

    Paraphrasing from SAE documentation I have on the VG30DETT engine from the 300ZX TT, here is how the NVCS system worked.

    NVCS ON
    Intake Valve Open: 19 BTDC
    Intake Valve Close: 49 ABDC
    Exhaust Valve Open: 59 BBDC
    Exhaust Valve Close: 9 ATDC

    NVCS OFF
    Intake Valve Open: -1 BTDC (1 ATDC)
    Intake Valve Close: 69 ABDC
    Exhaust Valve Open: 59 BBDC
    Exhaust Valve Close: 9 ATDC



    Note, example follows VG30DETT engine, but NVCS is a little more clearly illustrated with the VE30DE from the 92-94 Maxima SE below:



    Light Load
    At light loads and below 6100 rpm, NVCS is OFF with the intake valves retarded. This helps to promote a smooth idle and engine stability.

    Medium to Heavy Load, < 6100 rpm
    At higher loads but lower RPM's, it is possible for air that has flowed into the cylinder to bounce back out again. This decreases volumetric efficiency and therefore an earlier valve closure is desired. So under these conditions NVCS is ON and the intake valves are advanced by 20 degrees. Doing this can increase engine torque in this range by close to 20 lb-ft.

    Medium to Heavy Loads, > 6100 rpm
    Now at higher RPM's, whereas before the problem was that air was bouncing back out through the intake port, now the problem is that not enough air has had a chance to flow in yet. In order to take advantage of inertia effects, a later valve opening is preferred, even if it is the same duration. So at high revs, NVCS is now switched OFF and the intake valves are retarded back 20 degrees to their original position. This can help with top-end torque by as much as 10 lb-ft.


    Nissan NVCS and "Cam-Phasing" vs Honda VTEC

    Nissan chose to focus their NVCS system mainly at low and medium speed torque production because the vast majority of the time, engine RPMs will not be at extremely high speeds. The NVCS system can produce both a smooth idle, and high amounts of low and medium speed torque. Although it can help a little at the top-end also, the main focus of the system is low and medium range torque production.

    We all know how Honda's VTEC system works, but here is where it runs into trouble. Since it only has one profile with fixed phasing for low-RPM's (cannot advance or retard valve opening/closure), the low-RPM profile must be able to produce a smooth idle and stable running at light loads. This means retarded intake valve opening. At low and medium revs but high load, the intake valves cannot advance on the low-RPM profile like they could on Nissan's NVCS, so volumetric efficency is possibly lost, and torque production cannot be optimized in this range. Finally at the top-end, a higher lift and duration cam profile is used and the system drastically improves top-end torque production (peak horsepower), but it is never able to optimize torque in the low-end or mid-range.

    So the NVCS system and in general cam phasing technology helps significantly in the low-end and mid-range with torque production, but really not that much at the top-end. Honda's VTEC helps significantly at the top-end (peak horsepower), but not at all in the low-end and mid-range.

    Summary

    Nissan's 1986 NVCS system took advantage of the fact that the optimal intake valve opening and closure position for a given duration is different for every RPM and load combination. Varying the phase helps significantly with low and medium range torque production which is most important for most people. The engine is only going to spend a very small amount of time at or near redline, so perhaps optimizing an engine for operation in this range does not make as much sense? Indeed, the vast majority of variable valve timing systems in use today (Audi/VW, BMW VANOS, Porsche Variocam, Subaru AVCS, Toyota VVT-i, Nissan's 2nd Gen CVTC, etc) are all "cam phasing" systems just like Nissan's original NVCS system that favor low and medium speed torque production over all-out top-end. Additionally, these systems are also cheaper to adopt and less complex than cam-changing systems as well which lower manufacturing costs and costs to the consumer.

    As a final punchline, even Honda has now finally adopted a cam phasing system with their i-VTEC engines which also uses their traditional cam changing technology as well. Maybe Honda has finally seen the light and realized that some of us do actually expect some power below 5000 rpm? Now if only they would put i-VTEC systems in their V-6 lines (4-cylinder only so far). They still need some help in the torque production department, especially when pulling 3300-3500+ lb automobiles with only 3.0-3.2L engines! ;-)
  •  12-22-2006, 11:03 AM 1481 in reply to 1479

    Re: Using a 300ZX ECU on a VQ motor

    Now that's some good info. I even had to pull out the pencil & notepad...

    Kurt


    Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...
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