Engine Swap Forum

Thanks guys.  I'm not really sure what the professional technique is for locating components.  But for me a was quite easy last summer.  I just used the fenders as a reference and based everything off that.  The Silvia headlights bolt onto the fenders so that makes everything much easier.  I'm going to run 1 5/8" DOM .13 wall tubing for the supper between the frame rails and up to the strut towers.  Everything else is only for body support so I'll either go with 3/4" or 1".  I'm hoping to get started on Tuesday so pics coming.

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Sounds like u have ur plans together Broaner. Keep the pics flowing.

Be sure to check any potential classes u might want to run the car in to find out the minimum cage specs. It's really frsutrating to have the car running great and fail tech inspection... 1 5/8" .120 wall seems to be a usual contender...

To help answer Fred's question, there're a couple ways to skin this cat. Basically pick ur reference points (x, y, z) and measure everything accordingly. The trick is figuring out what reference points u can trust to maintain their accuracy (for example if u're measuring from the OD of a tube and it has a kink or the diameter changes, stuff can get pretty outta whack). Appropriate reference points will vary with the required accuracy of the project (race cars can be a pain in the ***!).

Recommended tools: Plumb bob (string w/ a  weight at the end), square (anything w/ an accurate 90deg angle), a leveler (bubble leveler is fine), pencil,  paper, a calculator, a tape measure (really???!) and a good marking tool (chalk/ 'soap stone'). Oh and find some sort of mild sedative to stop u from getting hyper everytime u take a look at it and see that it's coming together...

Maybe we can get some 'DIY fabrication tips' threads going in the fab forums...

Later,

Kurt

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Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...

Thanks man.  Yeah, I've got the SCCA rulebook on order.  How similar are NASA rulings?  I'm thinking of getting one of those books as well.  Basically if I do end up running its going to be in a fairly limitless class.  For this reason I love time attack.  Bring whatever four wheeled machine you can muster to the track and try your best to do it fast. 

That said, I've been using 1 5/8 .132 DOM.  I've been using the .132 because it was my understanding that manufacturing inconsistancies can make an ordered .12 wall spec out to something under the required spec.  For example my ordered .132 specs out to .138 on one end of the tube at .14 on the other.

I'd love a fab tip thread.  I've been honing my skills with trial and error.  Thankfully the errors are getting fewer and far between.

Since I'm not comfortable enough with my fab skills to create my own suspension pieces I went with SPL for the FLCA's.  Porn...

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Good idea w/ the .132" wall. Just use design to keep steel usage to a minimum...

NASA time trials have a fairly effective points system to seperate cars by their modifications which u can tell was designed by racers themselves. On the negative side, this ends up making NASA rules a bit stricter than SCCA rules. I can't recall the exact differences off the top of my head in regards to roll cages but I do remember seeing a blatant discrepancy regarding fuel cells (along the lines of: "Although the SCCA is a fine organization... SCCA fuel cells are typically not adequate to pass NASA tech..."

Be careful of the class u intend to run as well. A friend of mine went to road atlanta in a 350hp (turboed) Lotus Elise wearing R-compounds (+ coilovers) and got thrown into the "modifications completely unlimited" class. He figured, what the hell. Great power-to-weight, excellent stopping & cornering... Should be able to keep up, maybe even challenge... Then the multitude of 800hp+, 14" wide racing slick wearing, 15" ceramic rotor grabbing, sequential shifted, carbon-fiber-everything-down-to-the-30psi-capable-intake-plenum, 'cars' started rolling in on their dedicated trailers... His exact words were "I felt like I was on a deflating raft in the middle of a mutant shark tank... All I wanted was my mommy...". Luckily the organizers saw the issue and bumped him down a class - where he still got his panties handed to him on a stick. (He'll love to see that ). IIRC, it was a track day and he tends to follow the 'hillclimbers' more than the track events. I hope he'll join in and specify what governing body was in charge that wknd.

Moral of the story: Don't follow his footsteps.

Apparently, Full-Race (the same guys that did the R14) is sponsoring an S14 (~300hp, ~equiv 275wide slicks all round) running around the country kicking ppl's butts in (NASA) TTU running against cars like the Crawford STi (supposedly ~700hp+) and other notable bad-a$$es. Rumor has it that if u put their driver on a bicycle, he'd still give them a run for their money. I'd love to build a car and go head to head w/ him but my ambitions limit my resources. We'll see what the future holds...

Keep the porn flowing!

Kurt

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Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...

Thanks to one of my coworkers, my work ethic is ruined this morning and all I can think about is rollcages.

The car that brought this on is the 580whp turbo M3 powered 318 built by Azevedo motorsports shown on the cover of Eurotuner (Feb 2007 issue). Fabulous car to say the least. Custom widebody (quite similar to their E30 M3 which is the sex), side exhaust, among other goodies that get me giddy. Needless to say the guys know how to build a bada$$ car. But the whole experience is ruined for me by the design of their rollcage - obviously designed by an experienced fabricator, but in my opinion, lacks certain cage design features that should be considered standard. The most obvious being 'dead tubes'...

A 'dead tube' is a where one tube terminates into another without proper 'joint support'. For example, think of a T junction made using two tubes. Where the junction exists is a potential collapse point for the cage as one tube will try to bend the other in the case of an accident. Conversely, I could effectively argue that these dead tubes allow the car to crumple (absorb G's) rather than bounce (100+G's!) in the case of an accident, but my instinct & design philosophy tells me this was not the intent in this case, as is usually the case with many other dead tube examples I've seen (intent is easily identified with a worse case scenario which usually indicates potential impaling of any occupant...). Additionally, I believe the cage shoud be as rigid and strong as possible, and accomodations for other design features (such as crumple zones) incorporated into other items such as bodywork & peripheral devices/ mediums.

I'm not sure where the term 'dead tube' comes from or even which specific tube it identifies in the joint. I just know the application and to avoid it like the plague. Few examples of torn up cages from rock crawlers and old rally cars convinced me it wasn't the preferred setup... (One guy actually got his helmet bashed in by the collapsed member). If u ask me, it's asking for trouble.

[/vent]

Food for thought when building ur cage... not gospel...

Kurt

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Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...

Wow!  Two very informative posts.  Let me see if I can cover it all.

The NASA specs are really awesome to read.  Thanks a bunch for that.  The more and more I really think about it the more I think I just wanna build this with no rule-set.  Just build a super illegal street car that doubles as a super capable HDPE car.  Some may consider it a waste of money.  What is your take on this?  I'm thinking if I build it to show my skill ability that could go a long way if I use it correctly.  I'm not very a competitive personality and I can't stand the idea of banging up my baby that I've spent years and years of my life creating and perfecting.  For this reason, when I'm more financially able I think I'd enjoy to get into Spec Miata or perhaps even the more expensive MX-5 cup.

Thanks a bunch for that Azvedo link.  Rui's cars are two of my favorite ever.  Since day one I've loved the whale tail 911's.  And since I started attending track events I've grown very fond of the E30 M3's.  They are everywhere at Road America in the grassy parking areas.  Got any more awesome galleries like that?

Thanks very much for the info about the dead tube.  I'm taking it in but at the same time perplexed as to how to eliminate perpindicular unions in a regular cage.  Are you saying they just need to be avoided all together or they must be gusseted properly to eliminate their threat.  I was thinking of doing my rear legs of the main hope angled slightly.  Does that effectively eliminate the dead tube situation?  Also, if the perpindicular union is backed by another perpindicular tube on the other side is the stree eliminated completely?

More tomorrow.  Gotta go.

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Broaner:

The more and more I really think about it the more I think I just wanna build this with no rule-set.  Just build a super illegal street car that doubles as a super capable HDPE car.  Some may consider it a waste of money.  What is your take on this? 

I hope u're not asking me this for me to be ur voice of reasoning because my vote is, and always will be, to build the most badass car u can barely afford and go drive the brakes off it until something blows up and then fix what u didn't like about it. My entire 'modification philosophy' (if I can call it that?), and other parts of daily life (like driving, working and even thinking...), revolves around this theory. However I'm biased in that I honestly feel I was born to race cars (whether directly or indirectly is debatable... Jr's on the way so we'll see...).

All that being said, I still say go check the rules before u start cutting metal...

1) The minimum rules will still be a limitation to an extent. There are ways around the minimum rules (for eg. if u use titanium rather than steel, or a larger OD tube, thinner wall thickness can be calculated and justified) but validation usually requires some calculations and probably paperwork. For HPDE, this might not be too much of an issue but u might find some rules about somethng like "harness belts must be attached using xyz" that u can't get around, regardless of car type. U'll also notice regulations like "Fuel cell must be mounted x inches away from the nearest rollcage tubing" and "Rollcage to chassis attach points must use a 3" x 3" x 1/4" A36 steel minimum reinforcing plate" which can also cause u to fail tech.

2) The minimum rules are usually based on a good deal of safety/ performance experience from the 'engineers' who helped determine the rules. Some tend to be carried over from some other governing body, possibly w/ some slight adjustments but I still think it's a good baseline to determine ur cage specs. As with anything, use them as guidelines, not as regulations (kinda like that whole "Speed limit" crap).

3) In my experience, the cheapest, most effective mods u will find to make to ur car will be on the banned list of mods in the regulations. In the case of the rollcage, this 'rule' prolly won't apply but it's always interesting to fuddle thru the regulations to see which ones are banned because they're unsafe or because they're highly desired and will make the cars way too fast (there is no such thing BTW).

I could go on and on but I'm sure some of these things u've thot of and probably already know.

I feel like I'm hijacking ur thread into a rollcage design thread. I say we shift this to the Fabs forums. We can start from scratch there and develop similar to the engine mount thread, except we'd keep it somewhat general for other (street car conversion) chassis as well. Time constraints might prohibit u using it on this chassis but maybe ur next project?...

Gimme a week and I'll drop a boatload of info to absorb (or reject ).

Kurt 

 

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Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...

Your not hijacking at all man.  I love it.  In fact you and I think very much alike.  I live to drive fast.  Even in my crappy @ss Ranger I flog the hell outta it on a daily bassis especially in bad weather.  When I'm nearing completion on this car I'm getting some form of full size 4x4 truck and modding the hell outta that.

Anyways, update:

Front end fab is nearing completion.

Update time. Front end fab is right around half way complete. I've got over 40 hours in it so far. I haven't had much time to be in the shop so I haven't gotten as far as I'd like to be.

Originally I did this because I was looking to save weight. Now I realize I did not do that. In fact I probably added a couple more pounds than I removed but that weight is further toward the CG and it only makes the chassis stiffer and safer.

I cut off the front ~10 inches of the frame rails and went to town. I wrapped the OEM frame rails with 1/8" steel all the way around. I did this to beef them up and to make it look better. Some people may think its a lot of work for just an asthetic benefit in the engine bay but I want the whole bay to be super clean and smooth in the end. I'll let the pics tell most of the story.

First day of fab. If I knew I was gonna wrap the whole rail at this point I woulda made this peice much longer toward the rear. Oh well...




I cut off most of the tension rod bracket and boxed it in. I may eventually box in a portion of the bottom but that won't be until I get the chassis on a rotisserie because I hate working upside down.


2x1/8" flat stock on the top of the rail. 3x1/8" on the sides complete with big honkin plug welds. Most of my time on the fab so far has been spent smoothing the welds.


Then I wrapped the OEM strut towers with 18 gauge sheet and cut off the excess. The wrapped sheet is welded to the OEM tower at the top and smoothed down. It is also welded at the bottom to the curve and smoothed. I have yet to smooth the part wher it meets to framerail because I have to wait till I get the subframe it to make sure its aligned properly. No visible plug welds on there because I used the oem holes and bolt holes in the tower to get access from the back side. The tail of the sheet isn't welded down yet because I will be doing to the same process to the backside at a latter date.


Even with 18 gauge wrapped and backed by the OEM ~22 gauge I decided it'd be smart and following most sanctioning rules to put another 1/8 plate for the tube. Sorry for crappy quality pic. I'm still debating if I should smooth out the welds for the plate.


Shot of the down tube. It took forever to get the angles right for this because I don't have a chop saw yet. I'll definitely be investing in one ASAP. Again, sorry for crappy pic quality.




Passenger side is finished except for some minor things. I need to sandblast and rustoleum the inside of the framerail and then I'm gonna cap it off with an 1/8" plate.


Drivers frame rail is fully wrapped and partially smoothed. Strut tower is seam welded and smoothed. Now I just need to wrap the tower and add the downtube. Updates will continue as they come.

For those of you who are members on FA I've got a duplicate thread going.
http://forums2.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=162975

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Have you seen the new regulation cages for...uh...well D1 or Formula D...They go through the strut towers like this:



I'll be doing this when I get my cage done, since I don't have the tools or the skills to do it myself.

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S13 Fastback...putting the chassis together.

Suspension before power!

Hmm... I've never seen a cage like that.  Its not mandated for NASA or SCCA.  You may have seen that I've been questioning whether or not I want to run wheel to wheel racing.  I've pretty much decided that I don't.  After spending five years and a fortune on this vehicle I don't want to get on track to thrash it around.  I guess you could say that at this point I've convinced myself that I'll stick to HPDE's and time trials.  If I ever go racing seriously it will be in an entry level spec class like Spec Miata or the more expensive MX-5 cup.

Anyways, you guys beg for updates so.

Originally I thought I needed and wanted some super high dollar front brake setup. But really when I really thought about it one of the major reasons I wanted a super *** brake package was for the bling. So, I went the budget route with Z32 calipers, SPL adapter kit and Stoptech two piece Z33 rotors.

 

And now, after 5 months of fabbing and collecting parts it all starts to come together. Everything is on with basically no adjustment at this point. In order to clear my +38 SSR's up front I need a spacer. Tomorrow if the weather holds I'll be sandblasting the steering rack and painting it. Then the Z32 calipers need to get here and the Tomcat will be rolling around for the first time with four similar wheels.

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Very nice broaner!

Any chance I could check it out in person? (YGPM)

~Alex

Again, let me say thanks for all the positive comments guys. I've said it before but it makes it all worth it when others appreciate your work.

And now its 35 time. I ripped both the 30 and 35 down to bare heads and block. The 30 cams are on the 35 and timed together. I'm using the 30 cams for the time being to make everything much easier. I wanted to keep the 35 cams virgin so I can drill the dowel pins for a boosted setup. So, for now the only benefit of the 35 will be the slight compression bump and extra torque from the displacement. For a month or so I'll be using the 30 IM for simplicity but I plan on using a Z33 IM soon. So for a while power probably won't be much better than it was last year but torque should recieve a huge bump. Shots...

 

Edit:  Changed thread title to more accurately reflect the car.

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe

Nice man. More TQ huh....think you need that? Are you going to take 1st gear out of the tranny or what?

~Alex

It's been a while! Good to see the work still coming along! I've been out of commision for a while w/ a new (additional) job and a new member added to the fam. I'll be back once I get back in my groove.

Keep the pics coming! I'm still signed up for notifications!

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

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Argh... guess I'll stick w/ the plan...

Congrats on the little one.  I'm in a similar position in that my automotive dedicated time will be taken up slightly.  I'm building a house right now; slated to be completed in August.  Hopefully I'll be able to get settled in and get my shop outfitted and operational quickly.

New pics up. After being motorless since November the 35 is in. It looks like a 30 in every way on the exterior so I took a shot of the rear cam sensor.  Since these shots I've fabbed up the rad mounts, put the bumper and lights on, calipers on, seat in and done about 20% of the arduous wiring.

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Creator of the first VQ Powered S13 Coupe